Game Date: Mar 10th, 2045
Discussion Forum
Forum >> Discussions >> Brief Recruiting Discussion 
| 
| 
| Post ID | Date & Time | Game Date | Function |
|---|---|---|---|
| #5727 | 02/20/2019 1:31:06 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2496 Hardwood Administrator 
| I’ve been receiving a lot of mail msgs with questions about recruiting…more specifically about changing interest levels and why recruit A is at medium interest when recruit B is at low with the same number of contacts etc. I don’t really want to answer those in mail, because I think it’s unfair to give some people insight that’s not available to everyone else. I will try to answer all of them here…with a brief discussion of recruiting factors. In rare cases, interest level can go down….it’s due to one of these factors. Interest levels can go up too…but nobody ever complains about those.  Conference Level: The top conferences have a significant advantage over the lower conferences. Teams from top conferences should be able to recruit nationally….lower conference teams might be better off focusing regionally. Prestige: winning is attractive to recruits. Contact Duration: a contact to HS freshman will be more valuable than recent contacts to HS seniors. Coaching: some coaches are better recruiters than others – just see the variance in recruiting skill. Also, changing a coach will have a big, negative affect on uncommitted recruits – but in the long run, it might be worth it. Geography: region and in-state matter. If you’re a little guy, take advantage of this. Playing Time: The good news is you just inked a top-5 recruiting class and your lineup is set for the next four years. The bad news is you’re less attractive to potential recruits because your lineup is all locked up and there is no playing time for them. Random Factors: there is degree of uncertainty in recruiting. Don’t expect prospect A to behave just like prospect B. Prospect B heard the girls are cuter at State than Tech – sorry Tech.  Steve |
||
| #5729 | 02/20/2019 2:26:38 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive 
| This doesn't really help, because some of these factors are hidden. For instance, some guys freak out about playing time, if there there is a guy who might still be on the team as a SR, when they join as FR. Other guys don't seem to care about playing time, even if there is a player just one class ahead of them that will suck up all their time. Without any way to know why a recruit dropped from High to Low interest over night, its all just a big black box. We don't have any insight into which factors are important to which players, so its just a guessing game. Very easy to see this with a team like mine, where all factors improved except for playing time. Yet SOs reacted more poorly (an order of magnitude) than SRs. As long as the black box is convoluted and unexplained, you are going to have questions from confused owners. There should be a way for us to deduce or determine (e.g. feedback from contacts) a player's general interest in the team without having to waste 30 contacts on a player who will never want to play for the team. Right now its a complete guessing game. |
||
| #5732 | 02/20/2019 7:17:08 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
jakala Joined: 10/21/2018 Posts: 148 Inactive
| +1 to Rock. Thanks to give us Information of recruiting factors, they sure really help. But i also think 'we' need a little bit information of prospect feedback. Possibly about: How long they will wait to commit and what they think about our school (league level, playing time, etc). So 'we' can decide either to stick on him (by adding more contacts) or move on and keep an eye to another prospects. Here at HW, contacts are precious to recruit 'decent' players (different from BB drafting system). I believe no team would like to waste contacts, if they are not sure to win a 'decent prospect'. |
||
| #5735 | 02/20/2019 9:21:24 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5 
| I actually disagree--I think the ambiguity is important to prevent the game from simply becoming a number crunching exercise, and also for realism. We should know in the extreme cases--I'd say if a player's interest weight for a certain category is 2+ standard deviations above or below the mean, assuming somewhat normal distribution, have a note of it in their scouting report, but the majority of players shouldn't reveal their weights. In real life, players don't have a formula for selecting a school--all the factors are weighed in the decision, and they can only really tell you if something is of no importance to them, or of very high importance to them. | ||
| #5737 | 02/20/2019 9:42:34 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24 
| i'll also throw the -1 out for the same reasons as listed above for the most part. I don't mind some recruits occasionally saying "wants to commit early" or "values playing time" here and there, or even if a "recruit interest gauge update" happening that updates some recruits over time globally. Or really, any idea that doesn't create private information i'd be willing to consider.... just hate the idea that keeps being thrown at the wall. |
||
| #5738 | 02/20/2019 9:47:40 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
mukilteomike Joined: 07/04/2018 Posts: 276 Inactive
| -1 from me as well | ||
| #5739 | 02/20/2019 10:29:24 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| No sure where this false idea about private information started floating about. Giving us feedback about whether or not a recruit is interested has nothing to do with private information. It could be as simple as printing on the player page that playing time is very important to them. Right now playing time is a complete mystery which makes it so some players take 70 Contacts to get to High interest, while others take 16 Contacts. That is far beyond ambiguity. It just turns recruiting into an RNG fest. | ||
| #5741 | 02/20/2019 10:51:49 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
mukilteomike Joined: 07/04/2018 Posts: 276 Inactive
| They're high school kids and you want a formula explaining them. Good luck with that. | ||
| #5742 | 02/20/2019 11:17:54 pm | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| I agree with Mike here. Unless it’s of huge importance, or no importance, a recruit likely won’t be able to tell you how much a single facet of a school matters. | ||
| #5747 | 02/21/2019 5:47:43 am | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
Dcmrulz Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 99 Inactive
| Yeah i kind of agree with mike too. The whole process feels more realistic not knowing what factors matter more for a recruit. Just like reality, it probably does take a faraway and not as prestigious team a few more contacts to get a recruits attention than a closer school or a more prestigious school. | ||
| #5752 | 02/21/2019 8:08:19 am | Oct 16th, 2004 | |
|
Reneverse Joined: 11/08/2018 Posts: 63 Inactive
| In my opinion I should say we should do values what the recruit values and that the more you contact the recruit the more you will find out about the recruit just like real life and then if u find that his values dont match yours then you should just drop the recruit and go for someone else. | ||
| #5761 | 02/21/2019 2:19:42 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BigBallerPeter Joined: 02/13/2018 Posts: 346 Inactive
| Conference level, winning, and coach recruiting is why my teams recruiting is consistently good. I kind of would have thought playing time would hurt my recruiting as I redshirt nearly everybody. Agree with -1 to Rocks idea Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 2:21:21 pm PST |
||
| #5763 | 02/21/2019 4:25:09 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2496 Hardwood Administrator
| So what would that feedback look like? Steve |
||
| #5764 | 02/21/2019 4:48:39 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Of course its the high level schools who already have a huge recruiting advantage that don't mind if low level schools have to waste 70 points to find out if a recruit is interested in their school or not, LOL. Typical self-centered view of the world. Great for you if playing time hasn't been an issue. But it is for other schools. For lower tier, it can be a 80 point delta, and there is no way of knowing that until you have spent 40+ points to get the guy to medium interest. Some sort of feedback is absolutely necessary, and completely missing from the game. The mechanic I suggested is both highly realistic, and the mechanic used by every other college basketball sim. You don't like, propose something else. But don't try to make the lame argument that it is realistic for a team to call a kid 40 times before finding out he values playing time. |
||
| #5765 | 02/21/2019 4:49:23 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| The way you are doing it right now is the way i would like to see it done, where the freshman have things like "would prefer to play close to home" is listed on the skills writeup until after the player joins your team. If for example your system were to have a value of 1 to 10 on what a player wanted the most on recruiting, where 1 was not important at all and 10 was extremely important, then have a threshold set at 3 and lower OR 8 and higher for a comment to show up, and if multiple exist than the closest to the minimum or maximum (tie going to the maximum) would show up on the writeup. Have it apply to the writeup. Let the managers then see that they might be in a bit of an uphill battle, and at least if they lose they know they fought an extremely important value. I think what is probably better is to have interest on teams that are out of the running for a player mathematically speaking (given 45 contacts is the max) is to simply have interest drop to none from whatever level it is at. That actually saves people recruiting points faster. Has zero to do with recruiting from top teams or bottom teams, the idea of private info is again just not that good. Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 4:49:58 pm PST |
||
| #5767 | 02/21/2019 4:53:38 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I am perfectly fine with that solution. I never had a problem with that. I would prefer to make it a more active gaming component by forcing us to "scout" students for a while to get this information. But even just listing the information in the scouting report (or similar report line) at least provides us with the information. Still don't understand your problem with so called "private information", but if that is the hold up, then at least do it the lazy way where we all get the information for free, and no scouting is necessary. Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 4:55:20 pm PST |
||
| #5768 | 02/21/2019 4:59:36 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| it probably does take a faraway and not as prestigious team a few more contacts to get a recruits attention than a closer school or a more prestigious school. It doesn't work that way though. I have some in-state players that take 15 Contacts to get to High, and some in-state players that take 70 Contacts. This fluctuates from year to year depending on what the player thinks about playing time, and there is no way to know in any given year how many Contacts it will take to get a player to the next interest level. If it always took 70 Contacts it wouldn't be an issue. That fact that it can be increased 5x with no way of knowing from season to season is the real issue. For a LL-1 team that has to spend an extra 15 Contacts it is no where near as damaging as a LL-6 team that has to spend 70 extra Contacts. If we get some sort of hint that the guy isn't interested, we can just stop recruiting him without blowing our entire budget just to find out. Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 5:03:59 pm PST |
||
| #5770 | 02/21/2019 5:38:54 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| i've not seen an in-state take 70 contacts ever to get to high. The worst one took 13 last season, this season the player recruited at the same height took 17 despite +2 to recruiting from my coach gaining skills. I assume it had to do with location. I assume if i get like 2 more people at the position and he hidden values playing time, i might eventually need 25-30 to get him. i outlined why private scouting information is detrimental the first time this idea was brought up. If one person can have an asset that nobody else has, they have value. If multiple people have information on players that the other does not, it means that they can pool together if a prospect is not within their means to recruit. Let's look at it like this. There are 10 players that two teams in the same region look at that are the top players in their region. Team A selects players 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 Team B selects players 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 Team A is weaker at guard depth and plays up tempo, team B is weaker at big depth and plays slow. Lets say team a contacts player 1 who is a guard, and it says something like "doesn't care where he plays, he wants to play immediately and wants to play in a more methodical approach similar to the one he was familiar with from high school". Meanwhile player 9 whom team b scouted is a player who wants to play a run and gun type of shootout offense and hates playing a slow tempo that reflects poorly on his overall stats, and has no preference for playing time and location. The two managers in this scenario would be extremely incentivized given their differences in approach and the fact that they don't play in the same league currently to collude and trade off the information for one player for the information for the other, so that both owners can find players that are easier to recruit within a reasonable skillset of what they are looking for. Once they see that the other person is being truthful, they can then setup a scheme where they can each scout 6 guys heavily and avoid one another in the freshmen/sophomore phase by distributing 12 guys for their 6 contact scouting rather than overlapping and having 2 less guys scouted. They can then find maybe even a 3rd or 4th team before the scouting pool dries out too much for it to be of use to bring in more people. When this happens, it becomes more critical for players within the game to collude with one another than it does right now. There are situations in which collusion exits now with regards to prospects, but it isn't happening at the top of the ladder, those teams are duking it out for the same guys and the guys that don't win will always complain about it with or without the extra information. It's happening more at the bottom of the ladder where teams are recruiting locally, and the advantage is marginal unless someone in the same region with the same needs and the same interests sees it, so the value gained in that case is less impactful and more useful to teams like division 2 schools and division 3 schools. |
||
| #5771 | 02/21/2019 6:16:32 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Players are incentive to collude already, and if they are of the mindset to cheat, they will already be cheating. Plenty easy to collude in the game right now. The edge case scenario you lay out does not effect that in any way. There is no added value in the example you give. Say one team likes a fast pace, and another likes a slow pace. One one like to drive, while another likes long shots. They can collude in exactly the same way today as you have laid out above. Absolutely no difference. Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 6:37:57 pm PST |
||
| #5772 | 02/21/2019 6:19:27 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I have a player that slid to Low interest this season who was at Medium with 13 contacts. It took and additional 30 contacts (43 total) just to get him back to Medium. Pretty safe to assume it will take at least 30 more to get him to High. Yuri also reported the same issue last season. Lucky for you that you haven't had that happen yet. It will eventually, unless you get to a high enough level that it no longer matters. Its really only low level teams that really suffer from the black box effects of "playing time". Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 6:20:02 pm PST |
||
| #5773 | 02/21/2019 6:22:00 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| All I think is needed is a little clarity on how the game projects playing time. If we know how this works, we can see the mix of positive and negative aspects of our team and make a judgement call on pursuing them. I agree with Fury’s option as well, but I would say limit it to <=2 and >=9, rather than 3 and 8. | ||
| #5778 | 02/21/2019 6:27:42 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| That wouldn't help, because you can't tell if it is important for the player or not. There are two guys on my recruit list that are very similar: PF (JR) - 5 star 16 Contacts, High interest at the end of last season -> High interest after the flip PF (SO) - 5 star 13 Contacts at the end of last season with Medium interest -> after the flip it took and additional 30 contacts (43 total) to bring him back to Medium interest. Safe to assume it will be at least another 30 Contacts to get to High. Probably more when you consider he was unlikely to have started at exactly the bottom of the Low range. So despite the fact that the SO will have less competition with the current roster guys for playing time, it is obviously a MUCH more important factor for him. To the tune of 5X delta. Doesn't really matter if we know how playing time is calculated if we can't tell what is important to individual players. Updated Thursday, February 21 2019 @ 6:56:57 pm PST |
||
| #5781 | 02/21/2019 7:04:18 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| So perhaps an idea here is that we get better communication on how changes Steve make will impact current recruiting? | ||
| #5785 | 02/21/2019 7:29:05 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| a 'forced cheating' where if you don't you can't compete versus people talking too much about their own team and giving away free information. Yeah, thats completely one and the same. :roll: |
||
| #5786 | 02/21/2019 9:29:32 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| forced cheating LOL, you have quite the imagination. No one ever forces anyone to cheat. People can cheat now if they want to. It is very easy already to "collude" on which players you will pursue with other teams and share data about # of Contacts (also "private" information). |
||
| #5788 | 02/21/2019 9:42:00 pm | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| So perhaps an idea here is that we get better communication on how changes Steve make will impact current recruiting? This isn't something new. Its been in place for a couple seasons now. But only lower level teams with good rosters are really effected. Also, you have to be recruiting one of these guys who cares about playing time, so the majority of players haven't been impacted yet. I have a few guys on my recruiting board who were poisoned by playing time after recruiting them at high interest for a couple seasons. Its actually a little surprising more people haven't run into the issue. But I suppose a lot of the folks posting did take high LL teams. |
||
| #5795 | 02/22/2019 6:28:00 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| If you do not take part in collusion when private info is in the game, you are basically giving up on 25% of your information. Competing with 75% of the knowledge isn’t a great play. The ncaa games are fine for single player mode, but this really isn’t that |
||
| #5796 | 02/22/2019 6:28:42 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Balbinjj Joined: 02/25/2018 Posts: 123 California Baptist Lancers VI.6 
| A much simpler idea is to further divide the indicators from 3 (Low, Medium, High) to at least 6? Low, Near Medium, Medium, Near High, High, Super High. That way, you will have a better grasp of how high is the value of 1 contact to that recruit. |
||
| #5797 | 02/22/2019 6:46:26 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Anything to make the information available is fine with me. If you do not take part in collusion when private info is in the game, you are basically giving up on 25% of your information. Competing with 75% of the knowledge isn’t a great play. So we can all assume that you have been colluding with people about contacts. Good to know. Steve, can you do something about his cheating? |
||
| #5798 | 02/22/2019 6:58:30 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| There isn’t private information in the game right now, and that statement wouldn’t be definitive proof of collusion even if there was private info. Stop being an ass. | ||
| #5799 | 02/22/2019 7:11:24 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| Balbinjj, I like your suggestion, and I’ve been behind it in the past. I think having more tiers of interest allows us to better judge how effective our contacts are before having to commit a lot of resources | ||
| #5800 | 02/22/2019 7:16:25 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| Updated Friday, February 22 2019 @ 7:58:28 am PST |
||
| #5801 | 02/22/2019 8:04:45 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| It’s his way of defending his idea, which is all he cares about in the end. It’s the internet after all. Here’s to hoping an idea I like more is picked in the end. |
||
| #5802 | 02/22/2019 8:11:58 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Reneverse Joined: 11/08/2018 Posts: 63 Inactive
| GAHAHHHAHA ROASTED | ||
| #5805 | 02/22/2019 8:19:32 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BigBallerPeter Joined: 02/13/2018 Posts: 346 Inactive
| +1 to balbinjj | ||
| #5806 | 02/22/2019 8:30:14 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
Thuetli Joined: 03/17/2018 Posts: 4 Inactive
| I don't get it. Why do you all want to change anything? The game will not get any better with private information or with more information in general. |
||
| #5807 | 02/22/2019 8:32:06 am | Oct 20th, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| I’m fine with it the way it is, but it sounds like lower levels are impacted more by the lack of info and difference from recruit to recruit, so it would be more helpful to them. That’s my understanding of the situation at least | ||
| #5808 | 02/22/2019 10:03:42 am | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
Philliesworld Joined: 02/04/2018 Posts: 222 Inactive
| I'm also fine with the way it is... Granted I'm looking forward to future improvements Steve will implement in the future. @Rock I don't get why your complaining so much about the recruiting system. The classes you have managed to attain in the past several seasons are outstanding for a VI team. I get some stuff doesn't make complete sense but seriously, teenagers never make sense. Trust me, I am one. Updated Friday, February 22 2019 @ 10:04:24 am PST |
||
| #5812 | 02/22/2019 11:20:49 am | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| There isn’t private information in the game right now, and that statement wouldn’t be definitive proof of collusion even if there was private info. So you can tell what everyone else has spent their contacts on?! If you have knowledge about how many Contacts other teams have made to recruits, I would say that is definitive proof that you are cheating. Fury said If you do not take part in collusion when private info is in the game, you are basically giving up on 25% of your information. Competing with 75% of the knowledge isn’t a great play. I never said that he statement was definitive proof, but Fury is very strongly implying that he is colluding with other players to share Contact information. This is unacceptable behavior. The best way to prevent collusion is to act swiftly when it has been identified. Updated Friday, February 22 2019 @ 11:33:08 am PST |
||
| #5813 | 02/22/2019 11:37:38 am | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| @Rock I don't get why your complaining so much about the recruiting system. The classes you have managed to attain in the past several seasons are outstanding Unlike many folks on these boards, I don't point out mechanic flaws or make suggestions based on my own best interest. I pointed this out when Yuri was hit by the mechanic last season. It is a mechanic flaw that should be addressed to make the game better for everyone playing. |
||
| #5816 | 02/22/2019 2:58:52 pm | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
Yuri84 Joined: 07/06/2018 Posts: 185 Portland Pilots VI.7 
| Yeah, and even if this season the mechanic worked in my favor (at least for the time being, because there's no guarantee I'll be getting the players I want even if their interest improved during the offseason and saved me a few contacts this time), I'm still for making the process more transparent. | ||
| #5819 | 02/22/2019 6:28:09 pm | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| easiest way to make it more transparent is to implement rocks idea and share with a group, then you'll have perfect information on everyone  Back to playing March Madness 09 |
||
| #5820 | 02/22/2019 6:39:55 pm | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| I’m fine with it the way it is, but it sounds like lower levels are impacted more by the lack of info and difference from recruit to recruit, so it would be more helpful to them. That’s my understanding of the situation at least It's fine from a lower level management perspective, you just have to be understanding of your limitations. Chasing after the best couple guys in your region is unlikely to pay out as much, because someone in-state in division 1 is likely to get a little more per contact based on what we know. If you need your initial recruiting class, you can target mostly 3 stars whom are higher SI than 4-5 stars and snipe a top team's 2nd or 3rd option. In theory, they are going after their primary target with more points, and thus won't have the points to all-in their 2nd or 3rd option. Also, despite their lower quality now that the first two season are over, JUCO's can still come into their Junior season with 110-125 SI, get a redshirt from a division 3 school, and be 120-140 by the time they play in their RS-JR season. That's an easier way to pick off some extra depth too. Once you get the ball rolling, and that class gets to Junior/Senior level, you'll not have a playing time issue anymore and you'll probably be in division 2 at worst with all the bad computers that are starting 40-60 SI bigs since they have failed to recruit bigs. Might even be in league IV, aka division 1 basketball, and be capable. |
||
| #5822 | 02/22/2019 8:27:07 pm | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| Rock--there's a big difference between sharing contact numbers (which are a player action) versus scouting results (which is a hidden game value). Furthermore, it's asked that allegations of cheating are handled via private mail to the admin and NOT posted on the forum. I think you should remove that comment. | ||
| #5824 | 02/23/2019 2:52:14 am | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
Yuri84 Joined: 07/06/2018 Posts: 185 Portland Pilots VI.7
| It's fine from a lower level management perspective, you just have to be understanding of your limitations. Chasing after the best couple guys in your region is unlikely to pay out as much, because someone in-state in division 1 is likely to get a little more per contact based on what we know. Yeah, now try playing for a team in Oregon, where even the 'best couple guys' are often not worth chasing after and you can get better guys among the California leftovers... and I'm saying that still being a Div 1 team. Can't even imagine how it is for Div 2-3 teams from Oregon, but will probably find out soon enough after my crop of stars I managed to snag in the very first season graduate. |
||
| #5831 | 02/23/2019 9:18:24 am | Oct 23rd, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| You say that, but that is really talking about guys that can't get you to the top two leagues of Division 1. When it comes to being in Division 2, there are teams now that computers haven't started with good talent that are falling off quite quickly. Whereas last season computers all had 130-150 SI top guys in even the bottom ranks, they now mostly have 115-130 So in your direct state, a big like Knepper and a guard like Altman are the first choices (only choices maybe for a team aspiring to go quite high). However, Duane Boone for example who is terrible in most of his writeup is still going to be near 115 by seasons end, which makes it doable to exit Division 2 if it's almost entirely bots. I purposely picked Boone because of how bad he is, and there are players a bit better than him. If you expand regionally, there are 6 JUCO players north of 100 SI now that could get redshirted next season and end up in and around 115-120, again being competitive almost immediately to get out of division 2 basketball and back into division 1. When it comes to beating other players here, it gets a bit harder, but soon i suspect division 2 will become a complete cakewalk. |
||
| #5833 | 02/23/2019 11:58:20 am | Oct 27th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Scouting is also a player action. Hidden information is hidden information. If teams are sharing Contact information it is collusion, and it is giving them an unfair advantage. Fury, you are still way off base. How a player feels about playing time has nothing to do with how good they are. I posted a very straight forward example earlier in the thread. Two 5 star guys, same position. Younger guy cares more about playing time than older guy, so the younger guy take 70+ Contacts to get to High, while the older player only takes 15. In fact the way the algorithm is working right now, you are probably more likely to run into problems if you target lesser players. The only thing you can do is go after the elite players who won't get upset about the guys in front of them. |
||
| #5834 | 02/23/2019 1:41:03 pm | Oct 27th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| well i mean, i am guilty of taking information that you give me about 70 contacts and 15 contacts i guess. But then again you just made private information shared by saying that, so you'd be involved too if we wanted to go there Back to the point, i don't personally agree at all with how you seem to think the algorithms or equations are made in this game. Those aren't publicly available. We've only gotten bits and pieces, which doesn't really point to you being right or me being right, it just states basic information Playing Time: The good news is you just inked a top-5 recruiting class and your lineup is set for the next four years. The bad news is you’re less attractive to potential recruits because your lineup is all locked up and there is no playing time for them. Does that mean 5 stars come in and are confident they can play their way in? not specifically, but i guess it's possible. Does that mean that 3 stars come in and see a 4 star with 20 less Skill and worry about playing time? not specifically stated again, but is once again a possibility. Instead of telling you that you are wrong just because i like my logic better, i'll simply say that until steve says one way or the other, we won't really know unless a pattern emerges. and given there are apparently like 7-8 different recruiting factors, i find it hard to believe that you or I will ever know for sure. Updated Saturday, February 23 2019 @ 1:42:14 pm PST |
||
| #5835 | 02/23/2019 2:34:21 pm | Oct 27th, 2004 | |
|
ryhaggs Joined: 01/30/2019 Posts: 34 Eckerd Tritons II.1 
| I have been following this thread and have to say that I am on the side of less information. We know the basic factors of the algorithm. It is up to you, as a user, to figure out what is best for you. If you want to use algorithms to design your recruiting plan, you have all the opportunity in the world to build your own spreadsheet and run a regression to find your optimal recruiting patterns. If it is just given, people will get mad when it doesn't play out exactly true to the formula because of the random variables. I am new to the game, but it is easy to see the factors and I know if I am going to have a chance at a player or not. |
||
| #5838 | 02/23/2019 3:42:03 pm | Oct 27th, 2004 | |
|
Brewnoe Joined: 02/12/2018 Posts: 117 Inactive
| Played hide and seek when i was 3 .. they wouldn't even look for me. Poor old "Rappin" Rodney Westbrook Can't get a break. |
||
| #5843 | 02/24/2019 11:00:20 am | Oct 30th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I posted it on the board, so its not public. I didn't share it in private messages with other players. I don't have a problem with the information about the algorithms being hidden. I have a problem with there being no insight. And the fact that you have get a kid to High interest with 16 Contacts one year, and then it takes you 70 Contacts to get him back to High interest the next. No possible way to know that its going to take 70 Contacts all of a sudden. Given Contacts are a very limited resource (especially for lower level teams), there absolutely should be some sort of feedback from the recruit. We know if kids want to stay close to home (we even get a scouting report message), but we have Zero idea if a kid is concerned about playing time, or if they think your school isn't a good place to get playing time because the algorithms Steve are using aren't very refined right now. They seem to be quite arbitrary. |
||
| #5849 | 02/25/2019 4:14:24 am | Oct 30th, 2004 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| It’s not an argument over what we think as far as randomness goes, it’s an argument over how specific and whom gets the information that we have a disagreement over. 3-4 seem to one individuals spending contacts to get information that their teams can see, while 7ish seem more interested in global info being better | ||
| #5854 | 02/25/2019 8:19:54 am | Oct 30th, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Not sure what numbers you are quoting...? The randomness is the reason the mechanic is broken. High random without any way to get insight = a broken mechanic. I would rather see global info than no info. I just think its dumbing the game down in a negative way. DDS, 2K, EA, all of those games used Contacts to learn information about recruits, and it was an excellent mechanic in all of those games. Either way, to fix the mechanic, there needs to be more insight into what is happening. And there has even been disagreement about that on this post. |
||
| #5856 | 02/25/2019 10:10:31 am | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
ryhaggs Joined: 01/30/2019 Posts: 34 Eckerd Tritons II.1
| I disagree about a degree of randomness being a broken mechanic. For realism, a degree of randomness is absolutely necessary. My understanding is that there is an unknown emphasis on each factor, much like you would expect in real-world recruiting. If you know the factors that matter (we do) it is up to you to figure out what each prospect wants. If the prospect shows little interest in the number of contacts you are used to seeing, move on. I could get behind the idea that you "unlock" some hidden attributes through the contact process, but I think some of that is already done through the player recruitment page, no? I see where you are coming from with the playing time issue a bit, but aren't you being told playing time is the issue through the drop in interest level. Why does it need to tell you twice? |
||
| #5858 | 02/25/2019 12:11:37 pm | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| As I highlighted above. Two players who are nearly identical. The JR is at High interest with 16 Contacts (obviously doesn't care about playing time), while the SO takes 70+ Contacts to get to High interest (obviously cares a lot about playing time). So knowing that some players care about playing time isn't helpful. The difference between 16 and 70 is prohibitive. Some randomness is good, but 5x is way too much. |
||
| #5859 | 02/25/2019 12:48:40 pm | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
coachwannabe Joined: 03/09/2018 Posts: 437 Penn Quakers V.3 
| I agree with Rock. I'd like to see some more things revealed after X number of contacts have been put in (doesn't have to be an exact science). I would see this favoring the lower division teams, if not everyone equally.. I had one player a few seasons ago who got to Medium after like 15 contacts. Common sense told me to keep putting points in to get him to higher -- after I dropped 45 more contacts, I realized he just wouldn't go above Medium interest. It would have been nice to have a message pop up that said "he just isn't interested in playing Division 2" so I wouldn't have wasted those contacts to not land him. Having these messages appear at the beginning of the season (after a promotion/demotion, for example) could be useful. Having these appear after a certain number of contacts would be also useful. As Rock mentioned, several games have done this successfully in the past. It may take more work on Steve's part, so I wouldn't expect this to be implemented immediately, but definitely something to try to incorporate in the next two seasons. |
||
| #5860 | 02/25/2019 1:49:23 pm | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
Philliesworld Joined: 02/04/2018 Posts: 222 Inactive
| It boils down to this; Information is power. One party wants more information, allowing for more "power" or should I say insight into how the recruiting mechanism works, or even more simply put, what a player's wants are. I see nothing wrong with this, I'd like to have more information. The second party sees the possibility the "information=power" being pooled among several owners, resulting in those owners having considerable more "power" than some of their non-colluding peers. If this makes any sense whatsoever ;p But I share this concerns. I think they are valid and should be considered. These type of games can be ruined by such "info clans." I do think there is a fine line and a good balance between the two approaches. I know that if we work together we can help Steve find and build that "fine line." Updated Monday, February 25 2019 @ 1:50:51 pm PST |
||
| #5863 | 02/25/2019 2:51:55 pm | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2496 Hardwood Administrator
| I disagree about a degree of randomness being a broken mechanic. For realism, a degree of randomness is absolutely necessary. This is my feeling too. Recruiting shouldn't just break down to a math problem with all known variables. There should be uncertainty. There is a reason I don't display the exact interest level value and that each contact isn't worth the same as the last one. I don't want to give away everything in the recruiting model (plus it keeps improving), but some of the assumptions people are posting here are just not true. Steve |
||
| #5870 | 02/25/2019 4:47:04 pm | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| The problem is that Contacts are a valuable commodity, and we are blind for too many aspects. I agree that there should be a healthy amount of randomness, but I feel like the current amount (5x) is way too much. I also believe it is good practice to provide people with clues and insights so they aren't just making blind guesses in a game. In real life, your recruiters will collect those hints (at varying degrees of accuracy). Whether we make that information public or private, I see the omission of the information both immersion breaking and mechanic breaking. | ||
| #5878 | 02/26/2019 8:38:10 am | Nov 3rd, 2004 | |
|
olivetcomets Joined: 07/16/2018 Posts: 21 Inactive
| i dont understand why people want even chance recruiting, its not like irl basketball has even chance recruiting. you think im gunna go to the #1 overall prospect right now as an out of state d2 school and have the same shot as duke or kentucky? hell no. im all for more information, but i also like the rng factor. games are about random number generating anyways, thats half the battle. other half is whether you can stomach a loss or not, which it seems certain people can't in both hardwood and in brokenbat (we all know who). let's just appreciate we have this game, suggest better ways to provide relevant information while keeping the algorithm a secret (not sure how, to be honest) and enjoy what we have for now, and what we could possibly get in the future. thanks for the game, steve. |
||
| #6359 | 03/29/2019 12:44:12 pm | Feb 24th, 2005 | |
|
Blackbeard Joined: 03/17/2019 Posts: 562 St. Johns Red Storm V.4 
| I'm a bit late to this thread but after reading it there seem to be some good ideas so I'll add mine. The suggestion of having the players needs or desire be listed on their profile is a good idea. Right not there are a few recruits that say they want to sign right away or they want to play over seas or whatever. Maybe expand on that in the future? One thing that is evident and its perfectly fine because it mirrors real life college basketball and that is the fact that the top schools will always attract the best and the top prospects in the country. This in essence will keep the top teams in the top for as long as their team owner stays in the game. Which is just the way things are, even in RL. With the above said, I propose that along with giving recruits something to say about what they want before they commit make it so that the scholarship players already on the team have wants and needs as well. As an example, if a scholarship player is not getting enough playing time on his team why can't he present a message saying that "if he doesn't get more playing time that he will leave school". If he isn't given additional playing time then he can declare that he will leave and then he does. Then he can seek a new team for the next season which could be one of the teams that was recruiting him previously and which he did not chose. College ball players do this all the time. You could even have them declare that they are turning pro and then they leave after their junior season or whatever. That happens all the time. This could be a hidden trait that might just pop up. It might even level the playing field as far as allowing a lower ranked team to get a good or even great player out of the blue (if they happen to have an open scholarship. It might also force the team with the disgruntled player to beckon to the players demands or risk losing him. Then he can either join a team that was interested in him or join the draft again for the next season. Maybe even make him sit out a season and then join a new team with what ever eligibility he may have left. Just a suggestion to liven the game up a bit. Players are always communicating their likes and dislikes. The game is really very good the way it is but real life things concerning the team and players might be nice. You could even throw in scholastic eligibility and make some of the less smart players become ineligible due to poor educational or study issues. Thanks for making a very good game. Cheers.. Updated Friday, March 29 2019 @ 12:49:00 pm PDT |
||
| #6362 | 03/29/2019 9:51:20 pm | Feb 24th, 2005 | |
|
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2496 Hardwood Administrator
| I agree that there should be a healthy amount of randomness, but I feel like the current amount (5x) is way too much. How big is your sample size that you came up with this 5x number? Steve |
||
| #6365 | 03/30/2019 8:45:05 am | Feb 24th, 2005 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| I think the current amount of randomness is just fine, and there is an argument to be made for radically increasing the amount of randomness, although that would be a big change, as the game would change from finding a few targets, and signing them, to identifying a lot of targets, and figuring out which ones are most interested in you. Overall, I think the current level of randomness is in a good spot, as you have a lot of control, but it doesn’t feel like a numbers game. I’m also heavily against the ideas put forth on player happiness. I think those changes would make Hardwood lose some of the magic that it currently has. A lot of the beauty of the game is the simplicity (at the surface level at least). I also think that transfers won’t work nearly as well as in real life. In real life, a coach can tell a player exactly what he thinks of him, how he plans to use him, his vision for the future, etc, and the recruit can decide if the program is a good fit. In Hardwood, you can’t have those conversations in the level of required detail. This would lead to a lot of owners frustrated, not knowing if their vision lines up with what is “acceptable” with a potential recruit. |
||
| #6377 | 03/31/2019 12:35:13 pm | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
coachwannabe Joined: 03/09/2018 Posts: 437 Penn Quakers V.3
| I agree with Braden. | ||
| #6379 | 03/31/2019 9:24:45 pm | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| How big is your sample size that you came up with this 5x number? Only need one sample. Maybe the number is greater than 5x, but 5x is already way too much. And my sample shows there is AT LEAST a 5x difference in randomness. |
||
| #6380 | 03/31/2019 9:31:52 pm | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| identifying a lot of targets, and figuring out which ones are most interested in you. This is really how the game works now. You can never tell if it will take 5 or 25 contact to get a kid to Low interest. Overall, I think the current level of randomness is in a good spot, as you have a lot of control Definitely not the case. When it takes 15 contacts to get a kid to High interest his FR year, and then 70 contacts to get him back to high interest in his SO year, how do you have any control? You have to waste all your contacts before you find out the kid isn't interested in your school anymore... This would lead to a lot of owners frustrated, not knowing if their vision lines up with what is “acceptable” with a potential recruit. This is exactly why we need feedback. Right now its a black box, and without knowing if a recruit's vision still lines up with your school, it could cost you 5x contacts to find out. No one is suggesting to add new player "happiness", we want insight into the "happiness" they have right now. The frustration you describe exists today, in the current implementation of the game. That is what we are trying to fix. Updated Sunday, March 31 2019 @ 9:34:30 pm PDT |
||
| #6381 | 03/31/2019 10:35:04 pm | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
mukilteomike Joined: 07/04/2018 Posts: 276 Inactive
| You can never tell if it will take 5 or 25 contact to get a kid to Low interest. I have no idea if that's true or accurate. You know why? Because when I make contacts that don't go anywhere, I realize that and move on. If you've really, truly spent 24 contacts on a player who hasn't even budged to low interest, your stubbornness is to blame, not the game. |
||
| #6384 | 04/01/2019 2:24:25 am | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
Balbinjj Joined: 02/25/2018 Posts: 123 California Baptist Lancers VI.6
| I am on the side that we really need to give in, atleast a little bit, to the main argument of Rock, which is to give more control to owners. Let me reiterate my suggestion in the past. Instead of only Low/Medium/High, let us divide it into at least five. Yes, it is not much but still beneficial in every angle of recruiting. |
||
| #6385 | 04/01/2019 6:33:51 am | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I did 25 because I kept going because I wanted to see ground truth. Sure *maybe* I should give up on a guy after 15 contacts, but then again, I still probably have the most interest with him if no one else is showing interest. And I wanted to see how much of a factor the "playing time" was. Its apparently REALLY huge, and can vary by 5x, but we have NO insight into whether or not the player cares. The fact that a player can change by a factor of 5x between years only conflates the issue. | ||
| #6387 | 04/01/2019 8:07:22 am | Mar 3rd, 2005 | |
|
Gophy2611 Joined: 12/26/2018 Posts: 34 Inactive
| Rock, I hate being a keyboard warrior but wow are you annoying. For someone playing a free online game you are quite a whiner. If you don't like the recruiting model then either quit or adapt. You do the same thing in BB with the draft/waiver process. A couple additional thoughts.... Recruiting/college basketball is not an exact science. Look at the current Final Four, I don't think the remaining four teams are the four best necessarily, but that's who won their regions. Also, notice that we are playing a game where the top five high school seniors are committed to University of the Pacific, USC Upstate, Howard, Penn State, and UNC Greensboro (some real life college power houses). On top of that Francis Marion and California Lutheran are top 10 teams (shoutout to their Presidents). But, you're confused/complaining about not being able to get players to high in less than 70 contacts. When I'm reading you complain I personally like to imagine you buying a girl 8 drinks at the bar and wondering why she's barely interested in you. Then watching somebody who's a little better looking and a bit more funny show up and only need to buy her 1-2 before they're leaving together. Also, I understand pouring 70 contacts into a player if they're a 5 star recruit with 13-14+ POT etc. But, if you put 70 contacts into a guy just to get him to high that's not an absolute stud then that's your own fault. My (astute) observation on that is you just put 35 of your 53 days recruiting points (which is almost exactly 66% not counting the first day boost) into one player. And you did that to "find out if he cares about playing time" or some dumb reason like that. Plenty of real life High School prospects have "top three" "top eight" lists where some schools have no idea where they actually are on that or even have no chance of landing that player. Do you think Zion was actually considering UCLA or Georgetown etc? I don't, but I bet he didn't tell the coach "man I'm only at medium interest right now but if you promise me these three things (equivalent to using contacts) then I might get to high interest." |
||
| #6391 | 04/01/2019 9:51:26 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I'm not whining. Unlike some on this board, I am actually trying to make the game better. If you had a player at high interest with 20 Contacts, how many Contacts would you put in the next year after you promoted and his interest went down. Any reason to assume he won't just pop back up after a couple? No. After you have added another 10 should you stop? The point is, recruiting in real life is a LOT more informed than in the game. We shouldn't have to "call" the kid 70 times for him to tell us he doesn't think he will get playing time on the team because even though he was a SG in high school, he thinks he should be a SF, and your team has a really good JR SF who might still be a SR on the team by the time he is a FR and would get in the way of his playing time as a FR. The point is, we get 0 feedback and have 0 insight into what the recruits want. I'm just looking to make that equation come out to more than 0, because I think it makes the game much more interesting and strategic. Right now it is very shallow. |
||
| #6395 | 04/01/2019 10:19:17 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| Also, I understand pouring 70 contacts into a player if they're a 5 star recruit with 13-14+ POT etc. But, if you put 70 contacts into a guy just to get him to high that's not an absolute stud then that's your own fault. My (astute) observation on that is you just put 35 of your 53 days recruiting points (which is almost exactly 66% not counting the first day boost) into one player. And you did that to "find out if he cares about playing time" or some dumb reason like that. Plenty of real life High School prospects have "top three" "top eight" lists where some schools have no idea where they actually are on that or even have no chance of landing that player. Do you think Zion was actually considering UCLA or Georgetown etc? I don't, but I bet he didn't tell the coach "man I'm only at medium interest right now but if you promise me these three things (equivalent to using contacts) then I might get to high interest." was answered with
You literally ignored what he said, started some random set of comments about x amount of contacts and losing interest when you promoted and etc etc, and didn't even spend an ounce of time responding to what he wrote. Why even respond at all? |
||
| #6396 | 04/01/2019 10:24:15 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| You literally ignored what I said, and made some random comment, and didn't even spend an ounce of time responding to what I wrote. Why even respond at all? Updated Monday, April 1 2019 @ 10:27:31 am PDT |
||
| #6397 | 04/01/2019 10:25:20 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| I agree with a couple of things: 1. It might be nice to have 5 interest levels. In practice, we only have 3 (never seen a verbal, or talked to anyone who has seen one). Having more levels helps owners judge the progress they are making. 2. I agree with Rock that any insight into how playing time calculations are processed would be nice, because I really have no idea how that works right now, and it’s hard to account for it. I don’t think this needs to be anything more than a forum post though. Clarify it a bit, and let us speculate the rest of the way. |
||
| #6398 | 04/01/2019 10:26:56 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| You can go that route, or you could simply have the recruit tell you "I don't think I will get playing time at your school". Either way. | ||
| #6402 | 04/01/2019 12:58:25 pm | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
BigBallerPeter Joined: 02/13/2018 Posts: 346 Inactive
| You guys are talking about putting 70 contacts into guys just to get to high. and I'm sitting here just being happy it only takes me like 10 | ||
| #6406 | 04/01/2019 1:52:25 pm | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
coachwannabe Joined: 03/09/2018 Posts: 437 Penn Quakers V.3
| I think the comments to recruits' profiles that Steve has been adding have been helping get at what Rock wants to have -- and I agree that it's necessary to some extent. Just some direction is needed, don't need to know exact numbers. If a guy is listed as SG in HS and wants to play SF in college, we should know that. If a guy absolutely will not play in Div 2 or Div 3, we should know that. If a guy much more prefers to play close to home, we should know that. Even if these comments aren't listed at first, having some feedback from the recruit after 5 or 10 comments would be useful. A lot of other games have implemented these things and been successful. A lot of the guys complaining about adding these things are also guys who sit in Div 1 and haven't had to face these things. A lot of it is just common sense to add eventually (not saying immediately because I understand this takes time and Steve is only one guy). Rock isn't saying "I want to know EXACTLY how many contacts it takes to get to High" -- you guys are just bashing him without trying to understand his perspective. He's not completely against randomization to some respect -- it's just that some of these factors aren't popping up until the Senior year. I can also speak to this -- having a guy on High, then being demoted to Div 2, investing another 40 contacts, and only getting him to Low. It would've been nice to have a comment pop up that said "He doesn't want to play in Div 2" (This is something that happened in the first season out of Beta, and I, like Rock, was trying to experiment for the better of the game... before you guys jump on my dick about wasting my time). Here's the thing with some of us Beta testers -- we TEST things so we can give constructive feedback, so telling people that they're wasting their time, are being idiots, or need to "learn to adapt" aren't helpful if you don't understand our motivation behind doing these things. So chill with the bashing on other players and let's try to have constructive conversations. Put yourself in the shoes of a new user and see what might make sense. |
||
| #6407 | 04/01/2019 3:43:20 pm | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
mukilteomike Joined: 07/04/2018 Posts: 276 Inactive
| Umm, you're bashing players who have opinions that don't match yours. It's insulting when people suggest any opinion that doesn't mirror their own is one that is selfish. We have different opinions. The key word is opinion. What you think will help the game might sound terrible to me. Because they're opinions. They are not fact. People who have played similar games have some experience to draw on and can provide good perspective. However, they're also biased to those experiences, both good and bad. I haven't played any other basketball sim. I'm open to listening to others viewpoints about things they feel worked well elsewhere. It's my right, however, to consider them and decide I don't like them. You're right. I'm right. They're opinions only. Regarding the large number of contacts without improving interest thing. Okay, great. You've now tested things. Personally, I think it's asking for too much to get extra info with contacts. You apparently "know" you can make 24 contacts without getting to low interest. I think that's totally fine. We all must make decisions after every contact. If you've made 10, 11, 12 contacts, and there still is no interest, you've been given lots of information. I think it's reasonable, no, I think it's good that it works that way. As has been said many times, We're talking about teenagers. And teenagers who are trying to get the most out of the system. I like the model the way it is. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a fourth level of interest, but only if it is another step up from high. I like how the levels get spread out a little. If a fourth one with an even greater spread was added above high, I'd be up for that. I think the lower levels are fine. Updated Monday, April 1 2019 @ 3:54:16 pm PDT |
||
| #6409 | 04/01/2019 7:46:16 pm | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
jakala Joined: 10/21/2018 Posts: 148 Inactive
| Definitely not the case. When it takes 15 contacts to get a kid to High interest his FR year, and then 70 contacts to get him back to high interest in his SO year, how do you have any control? You have to waste all your contacts before you find out the kid isn't interested in your school anymore... Just my thought: 55 contacts to get a player back to High interest which he spent 15 contacts earlier, after a season flip is not logical. So, more feedback from prospects or more interest level (5 at least) is needed here. |
||
| #6411 | 04/01/2019 9:36:46 pm | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24
| Would probably like to know if the comments with regards to pace of play and such are likely to balance out and were a new feature, or if we are going to learn about these sorts of things at a seemingly random time. It feels like we are making an assumption that it is the latter, but i feel like you just implemented it steve. |
||
| #6412 | 04/02/2019 7:35:05 am | Mar 5th, 2005 | |
|
BradenWoA Joined: 12/02/2018 Posts: 276 Houston Cougars IV.5
| My assumption was that changes to the recruiting system were made last offseason (I thought Steve said as much, but not 100% sure), in which case it’s not an issue with the game engine as much as players not knowing/adjusting to the changes made. | ||
| #6417 | 04/02/2019 11:13:20 am | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
coachwannabe Joined: 03/09/2018 Posts: 437 Penn Quakers V.3
| Mike, if that's your opinion, I respect it. I wasn't bashing opinions -- I was just calling out those players who made fun of Rock for testing the game. And yes, some of these changes were implemented in the offseason (i.e., addition to pace of play)... these, to my knowledge, don't just pop up on recruits' profiles at a random time, they just popped up when Steve added them to the game. And I quite like the additions -- I'd like to see more (regardless of whether they pop up after contacts or if they are just added in general). That's my input. |
||
| #6420 | 04/02/2019 1:13:16 pm | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| I agree. If people are dead set again hidden information that is fine. But the information should be obtainable in some way. Even if it just means printing it on every recruit's page before you have even contacted them. | ||
| #6421 | 04/02/2019 3:04:25 pm | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
Rome Joined: 01/11/2019 Posts: 18 Inactive
| How about if recruits cuts a team from it's list or narrows his list of teams he wants to play for. | ||
| #6422 | 04/02/2019 3:16:18 pm | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| The tricky part is that they could still have "Medium" interest, but not really be interested. Like my guy. Was at High interest FR year with 15 contacts. I won promotion, and he slipped to "Low" interest, but really he was not interested as it is another 60 Contacts to get him back to "High". It would be better if the game made it explicit as to if the player thinks they are going to get Playing Time on your squad. There is no way for individual teams to figure it out for themselves as it seems to be highly inconsistent from player to player. Personally, I would like to see that information exposed only after a Contact or two, but better shown with 0 Contacts than not at all. Otherwise lower DIV teams will just waste all their contacts chasing after players who they never had a chance at getting (and have no one of knowing that). Giving up after 10 - 15 Contacts isn't a viable method, because after the 8th guy you've done that with you have no one at Low interest and no remaining Contacts. |
||
| #6426 | 04/03/2019 4:05:00 am | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
mukilteomike Joined: 07/04/2018 Posts: 276 Inactive
| Like my guy. Was at High interest FR year with 15 contacts. I won promotion, and he slipped to "Low" interest, but really he was not interested as it is another 60 Contacts to get him back to "High". If those are true numbers, that seems extreme considering you promoted from VI to V. I can't even fathom how that can happen. I would think that promotion would net the biggest gain of any. Hmmm. I wonder if they're all equal? In my opinion, they shouldn't be. Each level up I would think would be a little less important. And that makes me wonder if signing players affects recruits the same, not depending on what class they are. My guess is that's the case because you signed 5 players last season. That should impact high school seniors a lot this season, juniors less, sophomores even less, and freshmen hardly at all. My bet is the guy/sophomore you mentioned dropped like a rock because of the huge class that signed last season, but they shouldn't impact his playing time much since they're all scheduled to be seniors when he enters his freshman year. I can see that high school seniors this season may have drastically changed their level of interest due to the massive class coming in, but sophomores shouldn't care much. |
||
| #6427 | 04/03/2019 4:09:32 am | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
verysilentone Joined: 07/05/2018 Posts: 62 Mississippi Rebels IV.1 
| ^ I know Humphrey's interest dropped this year from High to Medium interest after I signed Lewis. They are both PGs, so I'm guessing that was the reason. Luckily, he still signed with me. | ||
| #6429 | 04/03/2019 6:37:43 am | Mar 10th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| @mike Those numbers are true, and that is precisely the issue. The ONLY negative factor that happened on my team was signing quality players. So its 100% caused by the Playing Time factor. I had also incorrectly assumed it would impact upperclassmen more than lowerclassmen, but as I illustrated earlier in this thread that is not the case either. I was recruiting two very similar (skill and sizewise) players. One is a SO and one a JR. The JR actually isn't bothered at all about the Playing Time, but the SO basically lost all interest (numbers above). So the guy less impacted by playing time was more nonplussed. Thus there is either a huge RNG factor we have no insight into or each player weighs factors differently (and we have no insight). Either way, we have no insight and no feedback other than wasting 10-15 Contacts one player at a time. This issue is less prevalent at the higher DIV levels because it doesn't cost as many Contacts when recruiting. |
||
| #6445 | 04/03/2019 3:28:29 pm | Mar 11th, 2005 | |
|
Ced Joined: 02/14/2018 Posts: 460 Indiana Hoosiers IV.5 
| My interpretation of Playing Time: -Recruit is a Center. -Recruit looks at Indiana roster and sees 7 centers on scholarship. (No comments on IU recruiting are welcomed...) -Recruit looks at Big State roster and sees less than 7 centers on scholarship. This will be a success factor in favor of Big State head-to-head against Indiana. |
||
| #6452 | 04/03/2019 5:42:50 pm | Mar 11th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Steve has already confirmed that it is not that simple. The recruits consider the whole roster and their likelihood to play in multiple positions, not just the one they are listed at. Besides in the example I provided, both players were PFs (at the beginning of the season). So labeled position isn't much of a factor. Updated Wednesday, April 3 2019 @ 5:43:14 pm PDT |
||
| #6460 | 04/04/2019 7:17:27 am | Mar 11th, 2005 | |
|
Ced Joined: 02/14/2018 Posts: 460 Indiana Hoosiers IV.5
| I can’t remember reading that information from admin. Do you know the thread topic name? | ||
| #6462 | 04/04/2019 9:02:55 am | Mar 11th, 2005 | |
|
Rock777 Joined: 02/02/2018 Posts: 1532 Inactive
| Here is one place he mentioned it. http://onlinecollegebasketball.org/forum/0/5/572 |
||
| |