Hardwood - Discussion Forum: Redshirt Limitations?

Forum >> Discussions >> Redshirt Limitations?

Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date

#17624	12/13/2021 3:38:07 pm	Dec 22nd, 2022
El jefe Joined: 07/06/2018 Posts: 704 Temple Owls I.1	I feel this is getting off topic. RS doesn't give an advantage to any one team - everyone can do it and make it to Legends over time with the right players. Then some bad luck, bad recruiting, heated recruiting battles can shoot someone back down the latter. The only reason in my mind to change this is because you HAVE to RS to have sustained success of any kind because everyone does it. If everybody RS, then it isn't a strategy and is no different from the game not even having a RS option to begin with. Every other game/roster management decision in this game has a strategy or uniqueness about it that can be significantly tailored from team-to-team without a right or wrong answer.....so RS could benefit from an enhancement to introduce more strategy to how it is used.

#17625	12/13/2021 4:58:02 pm	Dec 22nd, 2022
gards710 Joined: 05/17/2020 Posts: 461 Dominican Univ. of California Penguins I.1	damn, I'm a juggernaut?

#17626	12/13/2021 5:38:22 pm	Dec 22nd, 2022
FurySK Joined: 12/17/2018 Posts: 170 Florida Gulf Coast Eagles VI.24	I think that the biggest problem here is that there isn't a solution that is 100% agreeable. There are some that want the redshirts to be prominent, some that don't want them at all, and some that one different levels of allowance. If you pick one or the other extreme, someone will always be in here complaining (or in one case, they'll complain about 3 or 4 different things at once and take petty shots at owners in the process). Let's look at the pros and cons of redshirting penalties on 4 and 5 stars 1) Does it appropriately punish redshirts on really talented players? I think we can sufficiently say that it does really hurt to redshirt a 5 star player. Most 5 star players are good enough all around to merit people recruiting them regardless of deficient areas of their build. 4 star penalty does hurt, but if you have a player with higher potential and lower starting SI, you are still compelled to take the hit if you make that recruiting decision. 2) Does it make some players unrecruitable? to me the answer is it does. There are some with deficient areas of their build that i'd consider just based on their high SI. For example, a guy pacing to 130 SI but with 5 PD and 5 ID i'd take the chance on being good enough at scoring, distribution, rebounding despite the massive hole in his game. Now i have to take a hit for awful defense and having a tougher time recruiting other players. 3) Does it make the game more fun for teams? Not particularly. While some feel like it may have a positive impact as the top end players can now be played without a redshirt without fear of others becoming way better than them, it also has frustrated others whom are trying to recruit 3 stars only for them to turn into 4 stars at the end of the season, and now cost a huge penalty to redshirt. This is more problematic on low SI high potential variants of 4 stars. a 95-100 SI 13+ might fringe his way onto the list, but you have to pay quite the steep price if they do get to the 4 star. I would like to see star updates end at the start of the senior season. IRL not many HS commits get regraded on star potentials after committing, so i find it quite unrealistic and only a nuisance for owners trying to maximize their talent in recruiting. I am of the belief that you have a lot more fighting for talent at the high end of the 3 star spectrum now than you did before the RS penalty, and you might further create problems if you fully eliminate 3 stars OR redshirting from the game, as you would then make certain players at a low SI start unviable at a VI or V level of the game. Right now those levels can take chances on really low (65-75 SI) talent because they only need them to gain 55-60 SI to be capable of winning games for them at that level, but to get there they need all the time they can get. So we aren't properly looking at the impacts of our wants and needs as teams in Division 1 if we want to be quite fair about it. I also think that people are not properly analyzing the ceiling that has become more prominent these days on talent. I've very clearly started seeing people i redshirt stall out after a Redshirt, FR, SO, and Junior season. They will go a large chunk of the senior season without much improvement. So you aren't getting a guy to grow even higher than a non-redshirted player in at least a chunk of cases, you are simply getting them to the top of the build as a Junior rather than a senior, giving you more time maximized. This makes redshirting advantageous to do more often than not, but you could argue that there are at least 15-20 guys a draft now that are aiming towards 135-140 SI minimum at the start of their college career, and if they have 11 or 12 potential you could very easily just start them true freshmen and get them there without sacrificing a lot. the TL:DR here is i don't see there being a meaningful enough result to merit a change. IMO the only change i'd like to see is the end of star regrading by the start of the senior season.

#17630	12/13/2021 7:01:09 pm	Dec 22nd, 2022
electriceel883 Joined: 06/07/2021 Posts: 134 Wisconsin Badgers II.1	What is the penalty? I got my first 4 star recruit this recruiting cycle...

#17632	12/13/2021 11:10:58 pm	Dec 22nd, 2022
cwb Joined: 02/08/2019 Posts: 67 Prairie View A&M Panthers IV.1	Sorry, gards, I got you mixed up with another school. Nevermind that. lol But yes, el jefe said it better than I. I definitely derailed it by trying to make a point that could’ve been stated much more succinctly. Redshirting is so great that all the good teams do it… now what? Just assume it to be the thing you must do to compete at the top levels? Or should we introduce some strategy to it by limiting it and encouraging players to think more deeply about how they apply the redshirts?

#17649	12/14/2021 8:08:15 pm	Dec 24th, 2022
naph Joined: 02/29/2020 Posts: 605 St. Marys Gaels II.1	electriceel883 Additionally, teams with a history of red shirting highly rated players will also experience diminished recruiting prowess. This is because elite prospects want to play as soon as they arrive on campus and not wait a year to play regularly. - http://onlinecollegebasketball.org/rules#recruiting It will take you a few more contacts to get each sublevel of interest on recruits for a season or two after you redshirt a 4-star of 5-star player.

#17650	12/14/2021 9:09:42 pm	Dec 24th, 2022
electriceel883 Joined: 06/07/2021 Posts: 134 Wisconsin Badgers II.1	Yes, more contacts, just like recruiting out of area recruits and so on. I guess the crucial info there is the duration of the penalty. If it lasts a couple seasons, than an epic class could move you past that by the time they graduate if you did it when they were Freshmen. But I would have to be sure that is the case.

#17651	12/15/2021 5:39:03 am	Dec 24th, 2022
lmartins6746 Joined: 02/26/2020 Posts: 254 North Greenville Crusaders IV.3	Does the penalty apply to all recruits for that multibyear period or just 4 and 5 star recruits?

#17652	12/15/2021 6:04:27 am	Dec 24th, 2022
naph Joined: 02/29/2020 Posts: 605 St. Marys Gaels II.1	Its hard to isolate the factors that change the number of contacts needed for each sub-level in recruiting. I've had a 3-star big go from needing 4 contacts for a sublevel to as many as 20 (on the same recruit). In the same red-shirt effected season I had a 3-star guard that only needed 19 contacts to get to High. It seems to have more effect on more highly regarded recruits. Could possibly have more effect when you are in competition with a team that doesn't have the redshirt history.

#17656	12/15/2021 12:04:45 pm	Dec 29th, 2022
Hayseed Joined: 04/05/2019 Posts: 133 Lewis & Clark Pioneers I.1	I mainly agree with FurySK: "i don't see there being a meaningful enough result to merit a change. IMO the only change i'd like to see is the end of star regrading by the start of the senior season." I have only RSed one player greater than 3 star, because of the penalty. That said, I only have had three or four 4 star players ever. Of the 4 star players I have gotten, all but one were 3 stars when I recruited them. Now that my team has had some success and prestige I am now beginning to recruit 4/5 star guys. I share all this, because I find that there is some fun strategy about recruiting and developing players regarding star levels and RSing. I think the RS penalty should be more than 1-2 seasons, but not greater than 4 or 5. The change in star level messes with a team's strategy and hence is kinda annoying without much benefit. It might add a little strategy or uncertainty to recruiting (which isn't necessarily a positive), but it can really mess someone up (definitely a negative). I PMed a newer player last week who is in Division 3, because they were recruiting a 5 star. They said that the player popped to 5 star after they got them to High. Imagine all the points they must have put into getting him to high at LL6? Totally brutal and probably sets them back a couple of seasons. Why should we have star regrading ever? Are the benefits worth it? IMO -- naw.