Hardwood - Suggestions: All-American Criteria

Forum >> Suggestions >> All-American Criteria

Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date

#20826	12/03/2023 1:07:01 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2461 Hardwood Administrator	So there has been on and off again discussions about improving the All-American and Player of the Year award criteria. Currently, it's based largely on skills. It's not practical to do it based on statistics, because the difference between conference level I and VI is just too extreme. But there has been a suggestion to require or heavily weight being an all-conference selection to be eligible to be an All-American. This would mean you at least put up good statistics for your conference level. Curious what people thoughts would be? Thanks. Steve

#20827	12/03/2023 1:30:29 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
Fireballer34 Joined: 02/11/2023 Posts: 80 Albany Great Danes IV.2	I think that only division 1 teams should have players eligible to be all-American. Then the selection could be based more on stats. There could also be all American division 2 and 3 and they all would be stat based.

#20828	12/03/2023 2:29:08 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
chousley4 Joined: 03/31/2022 Posts: 15 Northwest Missouri State Bearcats III.1	I think a player must be All Conference to be named All American or POTY. Skills/stats/Win% should all be important aspects IMO.

#20830	12/03/2023 5:11:38 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
pschwartz Joined: 05/07/2019 Posts: 857 Inactive	I don't think skills should be in play at all. What should matter are results on the court such as: - Stats (pts, asts, stls for perimeter players, points, rebounds, blocks for post players, POTG for everyone) - Level of competition (could be as simple as LL or SOS) - Team success (Win%, good players on bad teams really shouldn't be considered). Could also just use RPI which takes care of team success and level of competition. I agree that it should be limited to all-conference players but is that list still good? Marvin Reardon made All-Conference in LL1 last season at PG averaging 24/6 and they finished 14th in conference.

#20831	12/03/2023 5:30:37 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
gards710 Joined: 05/17/2020 Posts: 441 Dominican Univ. of California Penguins I.1	Agreed with everything pschwartz said.

#20833	12/03/2023 9:51:38 pm	Nov 22nd, 2035
Ced Joined: 02/14/2018 Posts: 455 Indiana Hoosiers IV.5	When it comes to All-American merit, potential because they'll likely get drafted, Hoops IQ would be sweet, RPI, SI. I feel like weighting of RPI highest of the submitted suggestions as the next change is acceptable. Successful players carry teams, indicated in a school's RPI. Understand that stats can't be poured over unless there is a future committee from the Hardwood community. Could always have pre-season All-American awards for players and schools to watch.

#20834	12/04/2023 7:03:56 am	Nov 22nd, 2035
AbeFroman Joined: 09/05/2022 Posts: 24 Ferrum Panthers V.14	Weighing in: I don’t think skills should count for as much as stats (performance). I’ve had under and over performers (IQ often seems to be a reason) and in the end I don’t care if you’re 7’ and 3 OS… if you can score from anywhere on the court and shutdown opponents your 100 SI means nothing. Agreed with D1 (and maybe additional All-Americans for other divisions). Efficiency rating is about the best indicator I could find that can be calculated using the stats available in HW. That plus team performance and possibly leading the Division in certain stats should weigh heavily. Just my thoughts.

#20868	12/10/2023 9:07:37 pm	Dec 15th, 2035
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2461 Hardwood Administrator	Okay...I think we're going to start using a more balanced evaluation of players -- including skills, statistics and conference awards. Steve

#20996	01/10/2024 4:55:25 am	Mar 22nd, 2036
Ced Joined: 02/14/2018 Posts: 455 Indiana Hoosiers IV.5	Updated Wednesday, January 10 2024 @ 4:58:27 am PST

#20999	01/10/2024 10:57:15 am	Mar 29th, 2036
Blackbeard Joined: 03/17/2019 Posts: 558 St. Johns Red Storm V.3	Since this is about all american award criteria and hardwood has the goal of being as "realistic" as possible then why not follow the way the real world picks all american atheletes. Since I don't know much about it I reference wiki. This is how it is realistically done. "The Academic All-America program is a student-athlete recognition program. The program selects an honorary sports team composed of the most outstanding student-athletes of a specific season for positions in various sports—who in turn are given the honorific "Academic All-American". Since 1952, College Sports Communicators (formerly CoSIDA) has bestowed Academic All-American recognition on male and female athletes in Divisions I, II, and III of the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) as well as athletes in the NAIA, other U.S. four-year schools, two-year colleges, and Canadian universities, covering all championship sports. The award honors student-athletes who have performed well academically and athletically while regularly competing for their institution." This statement is the point of this and I quote: "The award honors student-athletes who have performed well academically and athletically while regularly competing for their institution." As far as HW is concerned there isn't anything academically other than a players IQ. No classrooms etc. And since real life all american athletes are student athlete in all the college sports that have to perform on the field or court as well as the classroom part 2 means on court statistics and apparently both are weighted equally. So for the sake of this argument and realism. HW should then chose the all american team based on a players IQ, not his SI along with his on court performance, Ie. statistics... Thats the only correct way to do it, either that or don't do it at all. IMO, it should be based only on a players IQ and his stats... That is if you want it to be realistic. Updated Wednesday, January 10 2024 @ 11:08:33 am PST

#21001	01/10/2024 1:27:26 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
bengalman501 Joined: 12/05/2021 Posts: 19 Cal Poly Pomona Broncos II.1	The world of College Basketball is often wanting to portray the look of students first and athletes second. But in real life, we know that players are used for profit more than anything. The written part here about All-American is just another piece of BS that the NCAA spews out. Last years All-American first team Zach Edey- Not on All-Academic team https://bigten.org/news/2023/3/22/2023_Winter_Academic_All-Big_Ten.aspx Trayce Jackson-Davis- Not on All-Academic team https://bigten.org/news/2023/3/22/2023_Winter_Academic_All-Big_Ten.aspx Marcus Sasser- Not on All-Academic team https://big12sports.com/news/2023/4/26/conference-2023-winter-academic-all-big-12-team-recognizes-481.aspx Drew Timme- Not on All-Academic team https://wccsports.com/news/2023/2/26/athlete-awards-wcc-announces-2022-23-mens-basketball-all-academic-team.aspx Jalen Wilson- Did make it https://big12sports.com/news/2023/4/26/conference-2023-winter-academic-all-big-12-team-recognizes-481.aspx In Real life you don't need to be smart to be an All-American. So going off of IQ would not be "Realistic"

#21002	01/10/2024 2:56:59 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
Blackbeard Joined: 03/17/2019 Posts: 558 St. Johns Red Storm V.3	Did you even read some of the material on those links you posted. I read some off the first link in your list and one person, a wrestler was majoring in Bioengineering. Another one was studying History/Psychology You would probably have to be kind of smart to be a " Wildlife and Fisheries Science" major. And I know first hand about this person majoring in "Mechanical Engineering" because that is one of the toughest things short of studying medicine trying to become an MD because mechanical engineering is loaded with advanced math and you do have to have a very high IQ to excel in that.. Maybe college basketball players come from the stupid & dumb category of students that are only doing it for the eventual pro money. But then the link YOU posted contains Big Ten, wrestlers, womens swimming, a gymnast, ice hocky and only one basketball player which was a woman, NO male basketball players in the big 10 made all american.. So stop with the BS replies because apparently in the Big 10 at least, basketball players are too dumb to make the 22 persons named to that conference all american choices. In fact, you posting that first link proved my point that it should be based on IQ because there were NO basketball players other than that 1 woman. I didn't bother wasting the time looking at the others...

#21003	01/10/2024 3:21:14 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
bengalman501 Joined: 12/05/2021 Posts: 19 Cal Poly Pomona Broncos II.1	My bad there, I should have clarified that we only care about honorees as the actual “teams” are mostly political in who is chosen but our honorees ares all numbers based Per Big Ten’s list “ To be eligible for Academic All-Big Ten selection, students must be on a varsity team (as verified by being on the official squad list as of March 1 for winter sports), have been enrolled full time at the institution for a minimum of 12 months and carry a cumulative grade-point average of 3.0 or higher” 3.0 is all you need which I think we can all agree isn’t genius levels of intelligence. I understand you’re frustration that random degrees were on the teams but as I said they are mostly politics between schools and should not be considered in what is being looked at. Edey doesn’t appear on the Honorees list for the Big Ten, or any team list if that matter to you. Which means he did not have a GPA of 3.0 or higher. He has been enrolled at the school for more than 12 months so he is eligible. Please tell me that it’s realistic to have hardwood’s All-American votes take IQ as 50% or any percent of the value. How in real life do we have a College Basketball Player of the Year and the first name on the All-American list be under a 3.0 and still say it’s IQ based. Blackbeard I know you’re an intelligent person, most likely smarter than me but I see you’re misinformed about how the NCAA runs things and this is my world of knowledge, I’ve just started my D1 football career and last semester I worked as a recruiter for the same team so I know how they operate behind the scenes and a lot of it is poor communication and shady tactics. And to be fair to you they do a beep job at putting things in writing and when they do it’s a massive grey zone of word jumbles so it’s hard for normal people to understand. But just take a step back and look at how most real life All-Americans failed to achieve a 3.0 or higher.

#21004	01/10/2024 4:18:34 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
Ced Joined: 02/14/2018 Posts: 455 Indiana Hoosiers IV.5	So stop with the BS replies because apparently in the Big 10 at least, basketball players are too dumb to make the 22 persons named to that conference all american choices. I respect your opinion. Just don't call my school dumb or the conference dumb without facts. IU basketball players under coach Bob Knight had a degree completion rate of 98%. He coached at Indiana for 29 seasons. Other schools were in the 40% range. There are a variety of ways to determine a student's intelligence, the award that counts is a school sharing lifelong skills that extend beyond the court.

#21005	01/10/2024 4:57:55 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
bengalman501 Joined: 12/05/2021 Posts: 19 Cal Poly Pomona Broncos II.1	Indiana Basketball appears to look still healthy academically. 5 of the 13 eligible were All-Academic and it also appears that no one was academically ineligible at any point which usually means above 2.3. Most schools don't report that stuff till they need to so failing students have a chance to contact professors and fix their grades. All this to say IU players have kept up their grades in accordance with NCAA regulations and are indeed not stupid, in the eyes of the NCAA.

#21006	01/10/2024 5:06:05 pm	Mar 29th, 2036
grayman Joined: 04/15/2020 Posts: 59 Methodist University Monarchs I.1	I think the first thing is that the All-Conference teams should be selected based on statistics, in the manner that pshwartz laid out, rather than skills. Then, the players from the All-Conference teams are eligible for All-American, using the same criteria. Maybe you could further limit the pool to D1 All-Conference players only, like Fireballer suggested, with separate All Americans in D2 and D3. @Blackbeard I think you’re confusing All-American with Academic All-American. Those are two separate things. The players on the All-American team are the best at their sport in the nation, their grades have nothing to do with it. Academic All-Americans are what you described above.

#21009	01/11/2024 11:22:20 am	Mar 31st, 2036
Blackbeard Joined: 03/17/2019 Posts: 558 St. Johns Red Storm V.3	@grayman Thank you for pointing that out. Yes my above postings were indeed about academic all american which apparently involves college sports teams. Here is the description for an "all american athelete award" which includes college sports: "The All-America designation is an annual honor bestowed upon an amateur athlete from the United States who is considered to be one of the best amateurs in their sport. Individuals receiving this distinction are typically added to an All-America team for their sport. Some sports will have multiple All-America teams and will list the honorees as members of a first team, second team, or third team. As such, All-America teams are composed of outstanding US amateur players. Individuals falling short of qualifying for the honor may receive All-America honorable mention. The designation is typically used at the collegiate level, although, beginning in 1957, high school athletes in football began being honored with All-American status, which then carried over to other sports like basketball and cross-country running. The selection criteria vary by sport. Athletes at the high school and college level placed on All-America teams are referred to as All-Americans." This brings us to the point that an "all american" award in any amateur sport does not take in to consideration the athletes physique, ie, his strength, IQ, speed, ball handling etc... An all american award is based solely on "how the athlete plays the game" which basically boils down to their over all stats not their physical build, potential abilities etc. Sure high SI players will be the likely ones to have the best stats but why eliminate the players that don't have high SI. I had a power forward on another team a while back that had great power forward only numbers like 20 IS good rebounding and defense but he was only 140 SI as a senior. Under the rules of using SI to calculate all american that player would have no chance of being an all american. And no the team was not in a cream puff division because it ended up being relegated out of division 1... In each of the 3 divisions the most talented players, the ones that are capable of performing the best are not always the players that are chosen for all american status. Thus the award should be based solely on stats and the player that can accumulate the over all best numbers should be given the award... Pperhaps you want to base the award on SI and a little bit on stats then just call it "academic all american". Thats easy enough... And yes, the NCAA like most all governing entities both in sports and all others are rife with corruption and they are totally centered on money but that shouldn't be an issue in HW, even if the next step is to start paying players... Updated Thursday, January 11 2024 @ 11:29:39 am PST

#21013	01/11/2024 1:06:40 pm	Mar 31st, 2036
imad0211 Joined: 03/23/2021 Posts: 106 Inactive	this is how utah does it idk how other states are NOMINATION PROCESS Test Scores GPA Academic All-State Qualification Index Each sport and activity season, the UHSAA will open nominations through RegisterMyAthlete. Parents/students will enter their RegisterMyAthlete account and click on the Academic All-State tab to enter their unweighted cumulative high school GPA, ACT/SAT score, and submit the nomination form. Schools will confirm the student-athlete is a varsity contributor, confirm the GPA and ACT/SAT score, verify the student is a senior, and upload a current transcript prior to submitting the nomination to the UHSAA by the specified deadline (View deadlines). The Academic All-State award will now be decided by either meeting an index score (View index) or having a 4.0 unweighted GPA. an index score or having a 4.0 unweighted GPA. index scores SAT ACT 1600 36 1550 35 1520 34 1470 33 1420 32 1380 31 1340 30 Updated Thursday, January 11 2024 @ 1:07:16 pm PST Updated Thursday, January 11 2024 @ 1:08:07 pm PST

#21015	01/11/2024 2:23:46 pm	Mar 31st, 2036
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2461 Hardwood Administrator	imad0211 - how is this supposed to intersect with Hardwood. Steve

#21016	01/11/2024 3:27:18 pm	Mar 31st, 2036
Mobbie Joined: 07/14/2020 Posts: 6 SUNY Brockport Golden Eagles IV.7	Probably pertinent to this conversation is how Wuzhou Lai won National Player of the Year in 2035 while not even making his conference IV.6 team. http://onlinecollegebasketball.org/player/176682 I think 2036 is a much more expected case where Bill Marshall actually won Player of the Year, was All-American and also won his Conference Player of the Year (also made Conference Team as PG).

#21150	03/02/2024 4:07:15 pm	Mar 19th, 2037
admin Joined: 01/24/2017 Posts: 2461 Hardwood Administrator	Yes, I think it's improved. I can tweak it after a few more seasons if we think there are still some inequities. Steve